Right People, Right Seats: Firing and Employee with Respect

Scott Schaper: ⁓ Hey, if you've ever had to a team or even built a business, you know one of the hardest you'll do. Is it hiring? It's firing. Today we're talking about the concept of right people, right seats. and why as painful as it can be. Sometimes the most loving and responsible thing you can do as a leader for your business is to let somebody go. we'll get right into it. let's talk about what right people, right seats even means, and where does that phrase even come from?

Brian McMaster: Yeah. And probably should preface it with, just recently went through this. keep the names out of it to protect the innocent, but I to go through letting, well, and really ⁓ over past, ⁓ I'd year and a half to ⁓ two you know, I've been trying to fill this position of a C-level executive. And it just seems like ⁓ I've you know, go through all the processes, go through all the ⁓ you know, personality profiles and the job descriptions and you know, all this stuff and it's been a challenge. So, I mean, you know, for me, I can see it in the rest of my organization, where I have the right people in the right seats and things are clicking and things are happening. But, you know, a lot of times I don't think we talk about the higher up positions and they are, they are a challenge for sure. And it's proven that over the last several months for me. So, struggle. And, you know, I think I think there's a lot here we can unpack and talk about. But, you know, we just started running EOS. I know you're familiar with EOS. I say just started. We've been running EOS now for about two years. We've been through a couple of two well, two annuals and a couple quarterlies. And it just there's there is so much to be said for not taking your best supervisor and making them your worst manager. There's so much to be said for right people, right seats. I'm not, I'm not sure where it first came from. I think it was the book, to great, where he talked about having the right people in the, yeah, Collins and, this.

Scott Schaper: Yeah. Jim Collins and it's an EOS concept for sure.

Brian McMaster: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. been a struggle. I'm looking forward to unpacking some of this stuff today.

Scott Schaper: Nice, well, I love the phrase, for a tree to grow well, it must be occasionally pruned. It bears more fruit, develops roots, ⁓ and a better ecosystem for the entire tree. So I think that goes without saying, but yeah, EOS, for sure, the Entrepreneurial Operating System, Geno Wickman's book, Traction, talks a lot about having the right people for the company culture and the company fit.

Brian McMaster: How about you? You've- Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Schaper: everybody is suited to their specific role ⁓ has specific metrics to meet. And if those two things are not working, sometimes you have the right person in the wrong seat. Sometimes you don't need that seat in the company at all. So it is a bit of a jigsaw puzzle.

Brian McMaster: Absolutely. And how many, yeah, and how many times, I mean, I know when I look back on my career, how many times I sit and think, man, I probably left this person go and they were a good fit somewhere else, but you're really not thinking about it at the time. So echoing your sentiment there, there's just that or that knowledge ⁓ understanding what people's capabilities are. And the other thing too is, ⁓ You know, people may be happy doing, you know, what they're doing for a period of time. And then they might be like, I didn't want to do this. I don't want to do this. You think they're doing great just because they're performers doesn't mean that they're happy and that they're going to stay. So this is a key, this is a key topic for anybody that's running a business.

Scott Schaper: Two things at RSM is we generally, throughout the course of 10, 15 years, we don't job hunting for a person. they sometimes that where they're sitting hasn't performed well, they're not doing the task right. And we're like, maybe they'll be better at email, maybe they'll be better over here. ⁓ And we go job hunting to try and find the right seat for them. And they're not stepping toward the process. ⁓ actively. And we find that that is don't go job hopping inside your company on behalf of a person, let them run towards something. So on the other hand, the flip side of that is someone comes to us, they're already a decent performer, they're doing well, and they're like, I really want to be on the account team. We're always like, excellent, this person is opting into something that feeds them better. And then we have an opportunity to upgrade, find somebody in their current role to backfill, and then Usually it takes us about 90 days to transition somebody from one seat to another. And we just tell them, hey, let's start transitioning you over. Maybe we'll say, do you mind handling the email for these three clients for the next three months while we do this transition? They're like, yeah, sure. So they kind of have this overlap services that they perform for a while and then they're happy to move into a different role. We found that that works really well when they're running toward the position.

Brian McMaster: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, one of the struggles there too, Scott is you go through this where you do find somebody that's a good fit and six months in you realize that they're not. And, and that that's really what I was up against, you know, and, as a leader, I want to convince myself, you know, it's like, yeah, you know, they, they, checked all the boxes, you know, they're, they're, they're the right person. And I think One of the biggest mistakes I've made over my whole business career is trying to make people what I think they should be or what I think they can be. That has been an absolute changer for once I started realizing, hey, look, I can't make these people be who I want them to be. I mean, it's just such a struggle. But as know, you're this type of person. You believe in people. You believe them. want to... ⁓ You want to help them, want to nurture them, you want to give them an opportunity. And just sometimes as leaders, we just give too much. when you and then there's a flip side of that too, where, you know, you get somebody and you have been for two days and you're like, hey, you're gone. You know, that's that's not a good piece of it either. So it is a it's navigating. is a puzzle. It's hard to put those things together. So but not

Scott Schaper: Yeah, have for a new hire, ⁓ a standard production role, we have goals that they have to accomplish ⁓ we just let them know what we need them to do for the first 90 days ⁓ we have this 90 day window, this trial period where we can let them go for a number of reasons and they have to be there and we let them know what success looks like. ⁓ And then same with six months and then there's goals that they hit every year. So like starting a new project, new line of business. The key thing is ⁓ so exciting to hire somebody. It's so exciting to start a kickoff, a new process, because there's a lot of expectation. This is going to cause this much new sales. We're going to get better at this process. ⁓ you always know what success looks like.

Brian McMaster: Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Schaper: But no one ever documents how do we know this isn't working? How will we know in 90 days that we're on the right track or if this has gone off the rails? Because we can fix it at 90 days. we have to cut it off.

Brian McMaster: Yeah. Yeah, that's where, you know, with all transparency, that's where I've been struggling a bit is because, you know, position I'm hiring is a detail oriented position, right? Because I'm not a detail oriented guy. I'm a high visionary. So I really had to, I really had to get curious and I really had to start doing those things. And, and sadly we did the 30, 60, 90, but the underlying problem was that this particular person was delegating everything to someone else, which if we were a 50 or $60 million company, that would be that be probably exactly the path you want to go down. But we're not we're a smaller company. And that's the that's that's where you got to hop on a forklift when you need to get in the back of a truck and unload some things, you know, you know, just just really be able to get in and get your hands dirty. And I think in the interview process, it's like, Man, yeah, absolutely. I do that in heartbeat. I've done it here. I've done it there, you know, and you get all that stuff. But when the rubber hits the road, that's when that's when you start to realize that, look, this might not be working. But I think your point about having clear cut goals, 30, 60, 90, having OK, so what a success look like. Those are things that that I I've really just started doing. And ⁓ it's it's definitely made a change for me. It's it's been a change for everybody, actually. But yeah, having those details is, I it's, you gotta do it. You gotta do it.

Scott Schaper: So let me dive into what happened. Did you hire two people? You hired leader and then he had a second in command that he was delegating everybody to. Did you hire both of them at the same time? So the, got it. So your delegate was already new. ⁓ Of that person is productive because he already knew the culture, the process, the day in day out, what eight to five looks like at So I feel like

Brian McMaster: No, no, there was one that was already here. Yeah.

Scott Schaper: Is there this, could this be true? You hire this leader and now Brian or somebody has two jobs, your current job plus guide railing six months, mentoring them into the role.

Brian McMaster: Yes, absolutely. But the thing is, mentality was, I'm going to bring this person in and they're going to be able to take the reins, understand, you know, hey, this is a direction we need to go. Take direction from me. You know, here, here ultimately is what I want to do. You know, take cold storage, for example. I want to be in cold storage. So what I'd look for for that person to do at the level that I had them at would be unpack this for me. Tell me it's a good idea. Tell me it's a bad idea. If it's a good idea, tell me all the details that go along with that and, you know, kind of go from there. And when it really started to slide was when it was like, we're waiting on this. We're waiting on that. We're, you know, there's, there were all kinds of reasons why we kind of weren't moving forward. And then when I started to really dig into it and started to ask questions, it was like, man, okay, I see there's something wrong here. And, you know, or or the other thing that was really a challenge for me too was I would get answers, you know, and ask a question, I get an answer and then it turned out to be wrong. So it's like there's a disconnect somewhere. So I really got to dissect this and figure that out. And to your point, what I did was I said, OK, let's take each one of these goals and I want to see things underneath them. I want to see three or four bullet points. This is what I got to do to get this done. This is what I got to do to get this done. This is what I got to do to get this done. And then ⁓ I started to question exactly what you're talking about. Why am I doing this? Why am I managing this person? I brought this person in to manage themselves and manage the organization. mean, was a very frustrating, very frustrating situation. But as we're talking about today, you just get to a point where you're like, hey, this is not working. And you gotta probably more quicker to fire than you are to hire. because it's such a key position in the organization. And that was definitely a challenge.

Scott Schaper: Yeah. We have this role in our company called an account strategist, and they can strategize with one customer, a marketing customer. They can ⁓ lay the strategy, what's going to happen in the next year. The marketing coordinator, so that's a marketing strategist higher level. The marketing coordinator actually takes all the strategy and gets it moving, make sure the SEO task is created, make sure the email task is created. and then communicates that back and forth to the client. But they're not laying down the initial hardline strategy. The strategist does that. Well, we used hire at that level, and we stopped doing that. ⁓ let people graduate to that level because they're in front of our clients causing their success. ⁓ we believe everything an inbound person says, everybody be a strategist. ⁓

Brian McMaster: Yeah.

Scott Schaper: aren't a strategist at the RSM way. They haven't played with our Lego bricks yet, and they haven't touched our customers, they don't understand contracting the way we know it. So they kind of work up to that. They may be doing Lincoln logs and marketing for fashion company. That doesn't mean that they can put Legos together. They get what building means. They get what an assembly means, but they've never pieced these together yet. So we stopped hiring for that role.

Brian McMaster: Yeah.

Scott Schaper: And now we let people rise, the cream rise to the top. And we hired an account rep recently and we're like, that's our new strategist. Can't wait to see what she does for the next six months. Cause everything she does tells us over and over and over, this is your next strategist. Cause we get to see her working at a lower level. So that's, yeah, let them work up a little bit because they're touching the customer. That's risky.

Brian McMaster: Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot to be said for the organization.

Scott Schaper: They're mixing our marketing mix the way they want. That's risky. So we took the, we de-risk those things into, why don't you coordinate for a while so you can see all this stuff working and you're getting into the various pieces of the engine. And if you kick butt at that, you can probably strategize later on. So that's how we solved. next level above a strategist is a director, a director of client strategy.

Brian McMaster: Right. Yeah.

Scott Schaper: And that person manages the other strategists. So, and then anybody in a director role has a certain pay level and is on the leadership team by default. Like we know if you're promoted to director, you're showing up in the management team every week now. So we took directors off the management team, non-directors off the management team. Those guys are managers. They have a department to manage.

Brian McMaster: good. Got it.

Scott Schaper: Directing means you have a fair amount of say in the company. And that's how we did that two years ago. And that's worked beautifully. Otherwise, we had everybody who was a manager and director, nine people in a leadership team of 30. It's like, ⁓ didn't work. It was too, too top heavy, too many voices. And ⁓ we're down four now. And they're all directors, directors or hire ⁓ president, vice

Brian McMaster: Oof. Yeah. Yeah, too many, too many cheeves and not enough Indians, right? That's the.

Scott Schaper: directors. So if you do it that way, the company will grow another eight, 10 people, and then a director will pop into the management team naturally. So it's like, yeah, that makes sense. So it's thinking about your whole company as a system. And that's how we, so now it's somewhat formulaic. We know we're going to need this many people domestically, this many people foreign, and we bring them into these departments based on the amount of clients coming in. We have a

Brian McMaster: Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty good. Now.

Scott Schaper: We have somewhat of a nonlinear model because we're a service-based company. So every 10 customers requires a certain amount of account management strategy and SEO people. So it's been helpful to assign. And then of course, we're managers, we're good business people, we can come up with exceptions. Hey, even though we had two giant customers come in, we may have to hire a little bit early based on their dollar of spend. you ⁓ layer on discretion on top of that formula as you go.

Brian McMaster: Sounds like a formula for success to me.

Scott Schaper: It's working at the moment, but scale and growth tend to throw wrenches into the mix for us.

Brian McMaster: Yeah, Well, for anybody. putting putting the base in place is one thing, but scaling a business is not an easy thing to do. And you know, everybody likes to use the term, ⁓ know, scaling, I'm scaling, I'm setting myself up for scale, but doing it and talking about it are two different things, as you know. So

Scott Schaper: Yeah, and I want to get back to ⁓ actual firing process and talking about that ⁓ that's what we set out to do. ⁓ I think of scale. When I say this, people are like, ⁓ yeah, that does make sense. ⁓ is not about getting bigger. It's about getting better.

Brian McMaster: Yeah.

Scott Schaper: And so what used to take us 10 people to service this many clients now takes us eight. That's scale. Otherwise you're just getting bigger and your profit never changes, right? Because this area in between not scaling. You need to go like this, different costs are more and create a ⁓ room here to scale.

Brian McMaster: I love it. Yeah, right. Yeah. Essentially, efficiency. You need to be more efficient that way.

Scott Schaper: Way more efficient. But if we all get better and better and better, then growth is the result.

Brian McMaster: Awesome. I love it. Yeah, I agree.

Scott Schaper: I think that that's a good way to scale. back to firing people, yeah, man, it's putting a bad apple next to a good apple. The problem with waiting too long is it will infect the entire basket.

Brian McMaster: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. you ever heard the banana scenario? Did I ever tell you that? The banana in the lunchbox? ⁓ It's like when your mom's packing your lunch and she'll only ever do this one time because you'll come home and tell her about it and she puts a banana in your lunchbox. Well, you have a ham sandwich in there and you have a ⁓ or whatever. Well, by lunchtime, everything in the lunchbox smells like a banana. ⁓

Scott Schaper: No, I can't wait. So all bananas are bad.

Brian McMaster: Yeah, well, I mean, you could presuppose whatever you want to or or or come up with whatever you think you want to align that to. But I mean, so true because, you and you hear it when you do like exit interviews or when you talk to people after you let somebody go, you know, you know, this person was saying this or this person was saying that or, whatever. ⁓ You hear kind of backlash that you wish somebody would have told you ahead of time. But But the bottom line is the one bad apple spoils the bunch is so true because you're trusting these people, these positions to make certain decisions and to lead in a certain way. And they're not good, ⁓ going to spoil your whole team. And the person down and then the next person down and the next person down. ⁓ It's like cancer. I mean, it just grows. So, ⁓ and ⁓ a lot people don't think about that. you know, it's, goes back to what I was talking about before. A lot of leaders, we want to be the good people, right? We want to, we're leaders, we're growing teams, we're growing people, and we're creating jobs. Well, I mean, it's really difficult to do that with a roadblock, as a bad apple. But the more you give, and the more you let that person sit there, the more the more they spoil the organization. ⁓ then you got more problems on your hands. So

Scott Schaper: Yeah.

Brian McMaster: That's a tough thing to get through. And I think the fight for me and the dance is always that I want to give people the chance the part of deciding how long do you wait? How long do you, what's deciding factor? And I think you hit the nail on the head and ⁓ a couple ago or ⁓ in our talk, ⁓ really boils down metrics. And if you're measuring it and you can see that things aren't going in the right direction, then you got to make a decision. you're going to keep going in that direction. So it's tough.

Scott Schaper: Yeah, if it's a performance issue, we will say, hey, these are the things we expect to get your performance better. We want you to get there. So here are the six things. And sometimes we'll give them 30 days, sometimes 60 days, depends on the situation. But if they didn't meet those, we check in with them at that half halfway mark. How's it going? So we're we're hand holding. But at the 60th day, we let them go. If they make it past that 60 days, they're off the performance plan and they're back on a normal plan. And so did ask me, a person, I had to let somebody go the week they were hired. I had let somebody go and we had another that was hired just a week earlier. And that person asked me, how does it feel when you have to let somebody go? And I'm like, well, that was...

Brian McMaster: Yeah. Right. But then.

Scott Schaper: profound of a new employee to ask me that. I said, I don't look at it as letting somebody go. I look at it as protecting 20 people. And the ⁓ and the customers and the employees require protection because I know for a fact that the person I let go, ⁓ going to find a job in about 30, 60, 90 days. They're going to be better off. They're probably going to upgrade their life in the next year. And they're going to look back and say, I'm glad that happened.

Brian McMaster: Yeah.

Scott Schaper: Because we hear that story constantly. So I know that we're going to upgrade and they're going to upgrade. It's just this five minute phone call, video chat or meeting that's uncomfortable, which is why we put it off. But literally, snip. It's a quick snip.

Brian McMaster: Yeah. Yeah, you're doing them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're doing them a favor. And, know, know, I think, too, ⁓ as leaders, you know, this is changing for me, too. And, and it's worth saying, you know, I've had terminations in the past that have stressed me to the point where I'm sick. And, know, it's like, I got to go in, I got to do this. I don't want to do this. Because typically, as leaders and entrepreneurs, we don't like confrontation. And, you know, it's like, you think it's going to be worse than it is. It usually never is. Although I will tell you a story about one that was really bad for me, but it usually never is. And to your point, it takes two minutes and the less you say, the better. It's like, yep, exactly. It just isn't working and we need to move forward from there. The funny thing though, the first person I ever fired in my life, I was 18 years old. And I was, I was in my uncle's company and it was a manufacturing company. And it was kind of trial by fire. You got to learn sometime. So it was for safety violations. This guy just wouldn't wear safety equipment. And I brought him in ⁓ I, I fired him. ⁓ I'm, letting you go. And he was just like flabbergasted that I did this. And leaned across the desk and he said, I'm going to come back and I'm to kill you. Literally, I'll never forget this first person I fired. name was Chris. won't use his last name, but his name was Chris. I'm 18. 18. You talk about you talk about influence in your life. So it can be and I mean, and you know, unfortunately, these days, that's a reality. I mean, how many times are people, know, in organizations, know, they let people go and they turn around and they they come back and they do something.

Scott Schaper: ⁓ my gosh! Yeah. Cheers!

Brian McMaster: real concern. ⁓ ⁓ know, as a leader, it's always in the back of your head. ⁓ I would also suggest going back to your thing about metrics. You know, if, if people don't know by the time they get terminated, then you didn't do something right. ⁓ yeah, I mean, in instance, he knew, I mean, ⁓ he he had to know he was still shocked, still flabbergasted, still couldn't believe it, you know, all that kind of stuff. And I think those are natural human reactions. ⁓ But

Scott Schaper: Correct.

Brian McMaster: The guy knew there ⁓ no way that he couldn't have. he didn't, ⁓ there's other issues, but ⁓ had to know. And I think, you I think, ⁓ you know, again, as leaders, you know, we take the stuff to heart. I mean, I don't like changing people's lives like that, but to your point, you're doing them a favor down the road. We're going to be better off. They're going to be better off. And that's just. ⁓ Yeah.

Scott Schaper: Yeah. and the company's gonna get an upgrade. And you're gonna be a better hire. When you go to hire, you're gonna ask some different questions.

Brian McMaster: Yeah, we've learned or I should say I've learned. I've learned a lot over the years from that. And that goes without saying too. The bottom line is, did you learn something? If you learn something, then it was a good investment and you move forward.

Scott Schaper: We got burned a couple of years ago and we made the decision, we're never going to hire leaders. We're only going to promote them. So that's a hundred percent what we do is we engineer stair steps ⁓ if they wash out, then we saved ourselves a lot of time and money. ⁓ also the ⁓ few fires, I saw this coming. I'm surprised this wasn't last month. I thought it was going to happen at my last update.

Brian McMaster: That is a great group.

Scott Schaper: I haven't had anybody surprised by their fire and that's engineering employment so that they know when the worst thing happens, they know it was coming. that like, how do you reverse engineer system, a business system where people can produce, know they're missing the mark and they're ready to be fired? ⁓ that is a powerful system that can repeat itself over and over and over.

Brian McMaster: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. doesn't make it any easier. ⁓

Scott Schaper: You know, play the bad guy in our company. ⁓ don't identify problem areas because I'm not in production, but brought to me. And so to me, I'm ⁓ less invested them personally. And I am detached enough where I always, here's what I do. This is such a cheater mode, ⁓ but I write my sentence down. I run that by, it's just one sentence. I run that by our HR. I get a turnaround in that in a day and I'm like, this is what I'm gonna say to this person at 3 p.m. on Friday. And I run that by the leadership team. And then I say, I'm making this up. Jacob, it's something that we've been working on, your performance plan for the last, what we've decided to do is end your employment effective today. The HR is gonna get a hold of you about your benefits, blah, blah, blah, blah. Do you have any questions about this? No, I thought it was gonna be sooner. I expected this coming. I appreciate it. what I do, ⁓ I just read it off the screen. I have it sitting above my camera in a different browser, and I just read that off while my eyes are staring at them. I don't fudge around with it, ⁓ I just say the one sentence. It's That's what I have done. That's what I've done over and over and over for years.

Brian McMaster: Yeah. There's a lot to be said for keeping it simple. ⁓

Scott Schaper: Very simple. Yeah, the more you say, the more you're giving them rope.

Brian McMaster: Yeah, absolutely. Do you ever have anybody ask you a lot of questions?

Scott Schaper: A questions come in.

Brian McMaster: Yeah, yeah, but it's so, so I find that I have people ask me a lot of questions and I think it's, it's taken me some time to get to the point where, you know, or, or say something, you know, you know, some derogatory comment or something. And I'll be like, well, I'm sorry you feel that way, but you know, kind of is what it is. we just move forward from.

Scott Schaper: ⁓ you know, here's the thing. People are going to be, they're going to have their spirits crushed and they're going to be mad. So you got to let them be sad and mad. And so I just say, understood. What else? Let it's okay for them. They're going to fire off an email to you in about an hour or a day. That's part of the process when they've got, they literally can't speak. It's very difficult for people to speak in that instance. They have a little bit of a quivering lip. They've been hurt.

Brian McMaster: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, just keep it simple.

Scott Schaper: And so I just, I let them say one or two things, but it's mostly to get off the phone. Sometimes I get an email the next day when they've had a to process, but a lot of times they're like, I really appreciate you and respect you guys, something like that. But I don't respond to those either.

Brian McMaster: Yeah. Yeah, that's good. That's good. Yeah, their responding is not good. I mean, and any attorney or HR person will tell you that. Keep it simple.

Scott Schaper: Yeah, it's also, it's just like this. Every call is recorded. So I have a recording of everything. so ⁓ maybe give our viewers, ⁓ we take a little break and talk about what we're up to in ⁓ our I am okay. ⁓ So ⁓ you're ⁓ tuning into Health and Hustle, we always stop and we kind of talk about what's in our lives at the moment. What are we eating? What are we reading? What are we dieting? What are we?

Brian McMaster: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, let's do it.

Scott Schaper: What are we supplementing with? we always have something to talk about. Here's mine. Have I ⁓ done this one?

Brian McMaster: I don't think so, InterMatrix.

Scott Schaper: Inner Matrix by Joey Klein. It's a system of, it's an emotional awareness framework to take ⁓ pretty much any situation and kind of run it through this filter of trying to master why did this happen, what emotion was present, and then can kind of map. I felt this, ⁓ that's caused me to react. That's when I sent out that email and this was the output. Those four things are all connectable. I felt this way. I thought because of that, I thought someone was attacking me. So I fired off of some verbal dart in an email, which caused them to be angry and me to be angry. And the result was just a whole wasted day.

Brian McMaster: Yeah.

Scott Schaper: one, two, three, four. And you can do that with positive things too. It's really gratifying to do it with a positive sequence, but there's always an emotion, a mind, sort of thought, some sort of action and a result. ⁓ when you start connecting them together, you're like, I didn't need to do that. I was feeling that, but I could have just chosen a different ⁓ or thought because of that. But you don't go back to the emotion, you won't what truly ⁓ ignited that of events. fear, enjoyment, excitement. And it's actually really, it's been really helpful just to chill out, become aware of these emotional states throughout the day. So anyway, matrix. And I signed up for a 52 week Wednesday evening for an hour training on the four, there's intuition, action.

Brian McMaster: And it's called the inter- matrix.

Scott Schaper: goal. I forget them all, ⁓ each one is 12 weeks. And you go through the system. I did first session last Wednesday and someone's like, this is my sixth year going through it. And this person is an attorney, a federal attorney. they said, my cases gotten more complex, bigger, and my win rate has skyrocketed just going through this system. knowing how human behavior works and knowing how my own behavior affects it. gone through all ⁓ entire same system over and over and over. ⁓ that's something I am enjoying right now. So The Interatrix by Joy Klein, I'm about a third of the way through the book.

Brian McMaster: about. Hmph, the inner matrix. Lee Klein. Man, that sounds familiar. He sounds like...

Scott Schaper: It's the whole, I think he's out of Denver.

Brian McMaster: He's in my, in my happy hustle group. ⁓

Scott Schaper: Okay, you go.

Brian McMaster: How about that? Good for you. Yeah, Joey's a friend. How about that? I didn't know he wrote that book.

Scott Schaper: Wow!

Brian McMaster: man, this is small world. That's Joey. So a whole bunch of my guys, my friends that are in the Happy Hustle group, they just went to see him, like four five of them to go through an intensive workout. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Scott Schaper: Yeah. A weekend, a weekend thing. Yeah. I, there was one in Kansas city and I couldn't go to it last weekend. Yeah. The whole, ⁓ the whole IMS, the inter matrix system, the groups around the nation, they all had their weekend. What happens is like next Wednesday starts the intuition series for 12 weeks. So the weekend before that, everybody in Kansas city who is on the same plan across dozens of trainers.

Brian McMaster: How about that? That's awesome.

Scott Schaper: Everybody goes to kick off the intuition series for a weekend intensive thing. And then for 12 weeks, you work on that system. And then you take a break, go to the next weekend and you start the power of action.

Brian McMaster: Joey's gonna shoot me because I didn't know that he wrote that book. ⁓ reach out to him before he sees the podcast. ⁓

Scott Schaper: So this is, I just wanted something, I think that Vistage puts me in a different mindset. This gives me a different emotional framework for me to process things that go in and out of my brain. And that's really what I wanted.

Brian McMaster: He is good, man. He's helped a lot of our guys with a lot of issues, a lot of things. Yeah, that's fantastic, man. So he should be able to help you. I love it.

Scott Schaper: I hope so. What's on your desk? What's new for you this week?

Brian McMaster: Have you seen this bottle sitting here? Did I show you this? It is.

Scott Schaper: Is that CO2? ⁓ Me and Suzanne want to buy one of those.

Brian McMaster: So for inhalation, yeah. Look, check it out. ⁓ Yeah, absolutely.

Scott Schaper: Yeah, a Carbohaler. Yeah, that's what I'm buying. I saw that thing. I saw it online for like 700 bucks.

Brian McMaster: Yeah, so I think I've been using it now for a week. And like, like just at your desk five minutes, and it's like a ⁓ burst of cognitive. is crazy. And it's like you're inhaling ⁓ seltzer water. ⁓

Scott Schaper: Right, do you have the percentage set to seven and a half? What do you have it set to?

Brian McMaster: Yep. Well, it's not on right now, but yeah, seven and a half. if I go shorter sessions, it's somewhere between five and six, but I usually do 10 minutes. So I do 10 minutes at a time and I do it at seven, between seven and eight.

Scott Schaper: Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. I read all about that in ⁓ a chapter of Breath from James Nestor. And he goes all about inhaling CO2.

Brian McMaster: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm not to go too far into the weeds, but so I do that twice a day. And, then I also, you know, was using hydrogen water. So I was putting hydrogen tablets in. So now I have a machine on the way that I'll actually inhale hydrogen. And that's gonna, that's gonna be a part of my morning routine as well. But man, I'll tell you what this thing's been to me, it's been a game changer. And the things that you

Scott Schaper: Hmm.

Brian McMaster: don't see that it does, you the neurological pain reduction, you know, there's breathing regulation, just calming you down. I mean, I probably had this thing on my face six times last week.

Scott Schaper: It actually also affects positively your VO2 max scoring. it creates some deeper, there's lot of science behind it.

Brian McMaster: And a lot of people are using it for anxiety too. you know, instead of, instead of popping Xanax or something along those lines, you know, just breathe CO2. So yeah, it's, it's, ⁓ that's, that's interesting, man. I'm I showed that to you. You'll have to let me know ⁓ it works out for you.

Scott Schaper: Yeah, well send me the link of where you bought yours.

Brian McMaster: Yeah, definitely. I think, I'm pretty sure I get 10 % off of mine through rejuvenation center in Sarasota. So I'll introduce you to Tara and she should be able to get you a deal. I don't know what I paid for mine out to look, but yeah, that's good stuff, man. Awesome.

Scott Schaper: Awesome. Let's see, how are we doing on time? We're about 38 minutes in. We have two more segments to go. You want to get back at it?

Brian McMaster: Yep, let's do it. And let's mention that CO2 will help you fire better.

Scott Schaper: The segment four... What's that? Yeah, exactly. ⁓ the whatever link you send over, I'll put in the show notes when people can go look it up. segment of our show notes here, ⁓ the is when you reach the point where you know a change is needed, like you've decided this person needs to be let go of. You have two responsibilities. One, be decisive, and two, be compassionate. So we want to dive into those a little bit, ⁓ the part. What does that mean to you?

Brian McMaster: Okay, awesome, sounds good. Well, I mean, of like we talked about before, the more you dwell on it, the worse it gets. So ⁓ mean, you know, then again, given a lot of rope, you know, and goes down to being compassionate to you're like, man, I'm going to change this person's life. I'm gonna I mean, it just there's so many things that roll through your head when you're thinking about this stuff. You just gotta like you said, snip it off. You just gotta say, I've decided everything usually everybody's telling you the universe is telling you And they're the person themselves are telling you, you got it. just you just sometimes I just think we can't get through our own head. You know, it's like, man, I got it. Exactly. I got to get this done. I got to get this done. And I think that's the most important thing is decide and then follow through. And then just like you said about being compassionate, look, it's just a conversation. That's what I kept telling myself this last time. Look, it's just a conversation. It's not working.

Scott Schaper: trash.

Brian McMaster: It's not working for either of us. If it was, we'd both be happy. And that's it. So made the decision, moved forward. it was, it was, it was over time. You know, I knew it was kind of degrading over time, but when finally did make the decision, it took me a day. So, you know, that's, that's, that's how I see it. That's how it worked out for me.

Scott Schaper: Yeah. I'll add one more to this. decisive, be legal, and be compassionate. Did you have to or did you sweat any legal issues, contractual issues?

Brian McMaster: I did. I always consult my attorney. No matter what it is, I always ask my attorney. So, and they write a letter and you know, the person either signs it or they don't sign it and that can be based on compensation and you know, an employment agreement, which in this situation we didn't. So, you know, ⁓ I ⁓ a phone to your lawyer may cost you a couple bucks, ⁓ but doesn't have to be a 30 minute call.

Scott Schaper: Yeah.

Brian McMaster: It can just be, look, I'm doing this. And that's exactly how it was called him on his cell phone and said, Hey, I'm doing this. you think about this? Did you think about that? And that was it. So definitely these days.

Scott Schaper: ⁓ The way you run your business makes it so that when we say SNP, it doesn't mean be fast. It does mean be decisive. I want to say that there's no, a lot of times there's no reason to be ultra fast with something unless there's some destructive and toxicity ⁓ happening in the moment. week is really fast ⁓ business world sometimes.

Brian McMaster: Yes.

Scott Schaper: So if I made the decision this Friday, I might let them go next Friday. Let me get my ducks in a row. Let me talk to the right people in the firm. Let me talk to the attorney and run this by HR. Sometimes they'll craft a separation agreement for me. All that can take a week. That's pretty fast in corporate land. have an employee share an inappropriate image during screen share ⁓ with client and female employees that may give you some indication of what happened. And I had to let them go within the hour. So I didn't wait for all those legal. again, and ⁓ usually get the blessing. again, that's ⁓ time in years where I had to let somebody go on the spot. ⁓

Brian McMaster: Yeah, if it's going to harm your customers, it's going to harm your employees or it's going to harm you. It's, it's a no brainer. And I don't think whatever argue with that.

Scott Schaper: When it comes to letting go, and this goes for clients, we can have this exact same discussion about letting a client go. Goes clients and employees is I want ⁓ everybody in the company to feel honored. Like, I don't why this person stayed here that long, right? I never want them to say that. This person's dragging us all down. And so I want everybody else to feel protected. ⁓ And,

Brian McMaster: Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Scott Schaper: You know, I want them to say, Scott, when he hires people, he means what he says, right? He's a business person at heart ⁓ will take care of the business as he takes care of his people. ⁓ of that, I mean, you want that culture of, ⁓ feel protected when he lets clients go or when he lets other go.

Brian McMaster: Yeah. And a lot of that's communication. And I think too, you know, I had said this earlier in the podcast, you know, a lot of times people will come back to you and they'll tell you things that you wish they would have told you ahead of time. You know, like, I saw this or has all this pattern or, whatever. And, and that just confirms that you've made the right decision. But I think, I think, you said it earlier on to, you know, the fact that you're not letting someone go that may be harming the organization is. is harming the organization even more. So, you know, just gotta be decisive and do it.

Scott Schaper: Yeah, and this really goes to the leadership perspective as you put here. You're gonna lose sleep, protecting the culture and protecting the company is your highest mission and responsibility as a leader. mean, do it with respect so that you can look at yourself in the mirror. And lot of times, no matter how good it was, how good went, still to me, it's an emotional experience. I usually lose a day of mental acuity. ⁓

Brian McMaster: Absolutely.

Scott Schaper: I need to get away from my desk for a minute. Letting somebody go is not flippant ever. Even though I try to make it, I just try to make it fast and painless. I'm causing somebody a little bit of pain and discomfort in their life and their family life. does affect me as an emotional being. I try to keep my emotions in check, but yeah, it's It's tough day.

Brian McMaster: No. And if it didn't, know, you, you wouldn't be a good leader. mean, let's ⁓ the end of the day, if it doesn't challenge your values, you know, that you're, probably not in the right position. And I think anytime you change people's lives for the good or for the, or for the bad, ⁓ have a responsibility. ⁓ ⁓ know, that's ⁓ you said earlier on, it's not about that one person in that one situation.

Scott Schaper: Exactly.

Brian McMaster: It's about the 50 other families and the 50 other employees. It's about the company as a whole. That's what we're taking care of here. So it might be hard for somebody to hear, but unfortunately that's the tough calls we got to make.

Scott Schaper: Yeah. So any of our listeners are struggling with an issue right now, which I know you are as a business owner, where you let somebody go with respect, you're not closing the door, you're opening one for them, for you, and for the company. You're kind of crafting five wins with an uncomfortable conversation. And that's your job as a leader is to do the uncomfortable things, make those tough decisions. we're at 45 minutes right now. Let's talk about challenges. What do you ⁓ What's the challenge our people. mean, we've talked about it enough, but what do you say?

Brian McMaster: Yeah. You know, I think one of the things that has been the most influential on me as a leader has been the accountability chart in EOS. ⁓ think if you don't have something like this, and basically what it is, it's an org chart, but it's more than an org chart. It's an org chart with what are the people's responsibilities? Where do they fit into the organization? Who do they report to? And ⁓ go back to that. You know, and I even went back to it in this situation, you know, it's like the accountability chart. Is this person doing what I want them to do? Do they understand that they're accountable for what they're accountable for? And then are we measuring it? Which is what we talked about early in the podcast. So I think my challenge to everybody is evaluate your team. You know, do they get it? Do they want it? And can they do it? I mean, that's the, that's the absolute thing. And if they don't check all those boxes and they don't meet your, your values for your company, then you gotta make that decision, be compassionate and let them go.

Scott Schaper: Yeah, if you have a hard conversation that you've been avoiding, have it this week. leadership isn't about avoiding discomfort, it's about approaching it in a measured way. It's about making decisions that serve the mission, the team, and the individual. And one of those individuals is yourself. So take it easy on yourself and go ⁓ your trusted leadership around the table and have a quick discussion with them. And then go take the actions you need. Any parting thoughts? ⁓

Brian McMaster: Um, I don't think, I don't think so. I think you hit the nail in the head right there. Just, you know, it's just a conversation. And if you keep it to a conversation, there's no yelling, there's no screaming, there's no, you know, there's no nothing, but focus on getting the right people in the right seats. It makes all the difference in the world. And if you don't, if you don't have them, make those decisions, make them, make them as quickly as you can and get the right people in there.

Scott Schaper: And then take a step back. Once you've done that, say, do I make this, how do I ⁓ this termination, departure even better next time? Maybe I'll communicate earlier, put a process in place to make sure they know. so create more respectful process to get there so that you can engineer a termination so that they say, I kind of saw this coming. I really appreciate how you've done this. If you can engineer back from there, ⁓ you'll have much better business no matter what.

Brian McMaster: shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. Love it.

Scott Schaper: Exactly. right, listeners, we'll see you ⁓ Monday with a new topic. ⁓ ⁓ thanks, have a great day, and see you in a couple minutes. Thanks, bud.

Brian McMaster: All right, sounds good. Thanks, brother.